Everything about rope direction of lay

[Dubz]

For years I was subject to the "myth" that the shrouds of English and American ships (which I had dealt with) are usually left handed. Don't think that is correct. Left-hand laid is only cable laid rope and, as far as I read (Steel, Lees, Lever's, Brady etc.), such ropes were very rarely used as shrouds (even if only on very large ships). 

For shrouds usually used is ... why do you think it's called that? ... Shroud Laid rope. 4 strands with a core laid right.


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*** Direction of lay & type of rope ***
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Terminology/Wordings in German and English:

Trossenschlag == Z-Schlag == Rechts geschlagen aus drei Duchten == Right Handed == Laid with the sun == Hawser Laid Rope (until 1847) == Common Rope == Plain Rope
Kabelschlag == S-Schlag == Links geschlagen == Left Handed == Laid against the sun  (Right now it is imo unknown that a left handed "hawser laid" rope existed at all in "our" time period 1750-1830)
Kabel == S-Schlag == Links geschlagen aus drei Trossen (Kardeele) == Kabelschlag == Cable Laid Rope, Left Handed == Laid against the sun
Wantschlag == 4 Duchten mit Seele rechts geschlagen (4 strands with a core laid right) == Z-Schlag == Vierschäftiges Tau == Shroud Laid == Laid with the sun 

Since about 1847 wording changed

Hawser Laid and Cable Laid are the same (William Brady, The Kedge Anchor, 1852 (1847)
Former Hawser Laid is now "Common Rope" or "Plain Rope" (Kipping, Rudimentary Treatise on Masting, Mast-Making, and Rigging of Ships, 1921, S.70)


Sources:  Steel, "Young Sea Officer's Sheet Anchor" / Schrage / etc.

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Cites:

Rope.—Ropes are of three kinds; three-strand, four-strand, and cable-laid. A number of yarns twisted together forms & strand. Three-strand rope (see Fig. 212) is laid right-handed, or with the sun (sometimes termed hawser-laid). Four-strand rope (see Fig. 213) is also laid with the sun (sometimes termed strand-laid). Four-Strand rope is usually used for sheets and shrouds, pennants, and generally for standing rigging. All rope comes under the general term of cordage. Cable-laid rope (see Fig. 214) oonsists of three "three-strand" right-hand laid ropes laid up together into one; these ropes are laid left-handed against the sun. Right-hand laid rope must be coiled with the sun; cable-laid rope is coiled against the sun.

Quelle: https://www.boatbuilding.xyz/boatbuildin...e/n-n.html


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"With the Sun, or with the Sun's shadow, is clockwise."

"But the description depends on which part of the process you are talking about. If you are holding a handful of fibers, facing a crank, and the crank is turning clockwise (to the right), the bundle will get a Z twist, as shown in Figure 2.7 (left), above. If, on the other hand, the hook is stationary, and you are twisting the bundle of fibers clockwise (to the right) with your hand, the fibers get an S twist. You do not have to look very far to find a Z twist described as right twist, and left twist, and clockwise and anticlockwise. [495]

Older texts talk of ropes laid "with the Sun". The Sun rises in the East and sets in the West, and its shadow on a sundial travels West to East. Clocks were designed so the hour hand mimics the motion of the gnomon's shadow. With the Sun, or with the Sun's shadow, is clockwise. But as just noted, clockwise can have two meanings when twisting fibers.

Shakespeare (1564 – 1616) mentions clocks frequently in his plays but the fact is, in the American Colonies, in the late 1700s, clocks were still fairly rare. According to the Oxford English dictionary, the word "clockwise" did not exist until after 1800.
If you said the word "clock", to a Scottish immigrant in the 18th Century, you would be understood to be talking about a "cloak", or the noise a chicken makes - "cluck", or one of several large beetles. [260]

So if you are holding the loose ends of the fibers and want an S twisted yarn, then the crank has to turn counter clockwise, from your point of view.
But if you are giving instructions to the person turning the crank, you have to reverse your instructions since they are facing the crank from the other direction. From their perspective, they have to turn the crank clockwise.
Unless the crank they are turning is driving the hooks with gears.
But that depends on how the gears are arranged....

It is easier to just show your cranker which direction to crank by making big hand circles."

Quelle: http://bkeithropemaker.com/Rope_Chapt_2.html


And then the Americans started to mix things .. 

   

Quelle: The Mariner's Mirror - Volume 91, 2005 - Issue 3 - https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1...ode=rmir20

[Dubz]

In Boudriot's translated Seventy-Four Gun Ship: A Practical Treatise on the Art of Naval Architecture Masts, Sails, Rigging (Seventy-Four Gun Ship) Volume 3 is a little glitch. 

"With the sun" & "against the sun" was mistakenly swapped. 

   

[tkay11]

Thanks for the research. I find S and Z easiest to follow and remember.

Tony

[Dubz]

I prefer right- and left-handed as I just need to look at my hands :-)

   

[Dubz]

Steel - The Elements and Practice of Rigging And Seamanship - Cites related to rope - 1794


S.54 "CABLES, ropes made of nine strands, that are nine inches and upwards in circumference."


S.55 "HAWSERS, ropes made of three or four single strands. When made of four strands it is called shroud-laid, and is used in merchant-ships."

"HEART, a strand slack twisted, used in some four-strand ropes it is run down the middle, to fill the vacancy that would otherwise occur, and thereby forms a round. It is best hawser-laid."

"LAYING, the closing of the strands together to compose the rope."

S.57 "STRAND, one of the twists or divisions of which a rope is composed."

S. 59 "YARN, called twenty-five, twenty, and eighteen thread yarn, differs only in the fineness; the twenty-five being finer than the twenty, &c. It is thus distinguished, because either twenty-five, twenty, or eighteen threads a hook, make a rope of three inches in circumference, and so in proportion."

S.61 "STAY-ROPES have four strands, with a heart running through the middle, which keeps the rope true; and, when hawser-laid, as a rope, prevents it from stretching, and the strands have each their proper bearing.
The stays are made of fine yarn, spun from the best topt hemp. Twenty threads a-hook make a rope 3 inches in circumference, and so in proportion for any size. The yarn is warped to the length and size for the stay wanted. The strands are warped long enough for one strand to make two, when hauled about and hung upon the back-hook. By this an eye is left for the upper-end of the stay to go through and form a collar to go over the mast-head.

For stays of 9 inches in circumference, each strand should be 3 inches and a half, and so in proportion. The heart must be near the size of the strand, or the rope will not lie round and true.

Particular attention should be paid in making the stays, as on them the safety of the mast, &c. greatly depends.

Main, fore, and mizen, topmast, and some topgallant-mast, stays are cable-laid."


S.62 "TILLER-ROPE is made of fine white 25-thread yarn, untarred, and contains 3 or 4 strands, with or without a heart. It is laid harder than other ropes."

"Ropes, from 2 inches to the largest size, for running rigging, are hawser-laid, and made of 3 strands on a sledge: these take more hardening and closing than those made on a wheel, and, when laid, stand 120 to 130 fathoms. They should be short-laid, a good hard kept up before, and the hook or wheel turned briskly about behind; but it depends much on the judgement of the layer."

"Ropes made of hemp inferior to Petersburgh braak hemp, viz. half clean or out-shot, ground-tows, and white oakum, purchased as old stores from the navy sales, &c. are easily known by opening the end for two or three feet, untwisting the strands, and opening the yarn a little way; if it appears short, in using it will stretch, and lessen in the circumference.

Ropes made from topt hemp will not stretch so much as common cordage, for the short hemp taken from it hinders it from receiving so much tar."

"Deep-sea lines are hawser-laid; hand lead-lines, marline, house and sean lines, sean-ropes, and hammock-lines, are made from groundtows or inferior hemp dressed down to shorts, and what comes from it makes oakum."


S.64 "Deep-sea lines, for the royal navy, are of 12 threads, hawser-laid. Eighty-five fathoms weigh 14 pounds.

Deep-sea lines of 12 threads, hawser-laid, are generally for exportation. They have 3 strands, 4 threads in a strand, spun 160 yards, and stand 60 fathoms, which weigh 12 pounds."


S.66 "For Stays, Tacks, Sheets, and Buoy-Ropes, which are Cable-laid, allow the same Length as is shewn for Yarn in the Tables for Cables, which shew how many Fathoms and Feet of Yarn will make a Fathom of Cable, from 1 to 120 Fathoms."


S.163 "CABLET. Any cable-laid rope under nine inches in circumference"


S.170 "MESSENGER. A cable-laid rope, used to heave in the cable."


S.186 "All shrouds are wormed with double spun-yarn, one-fourth the length from the center to the eye, on each side; but the fore-leg of the foremost pair is wormed all the way to the end.

Each length after being wormed, is hove out by the same purchase, till each pair has acquired, by stretching, once and a half the length of the eye; and should remain on that stretch twenty-four hours before the service is laid on.

Shrouds are wormed before they are hove out to lengthen, because the worming of cable-laid ropes encreases, in tension, with the rope; and thereby draws smooth and even into the cuntline."


S.187 "BOWSPRIT-SHROUDS are made of cable-laid rope. They have an iron hook and thimble spliced in the inner ends, and are served over the splice."


S.190 "STAY is cable-laid in large ships, and hawser-laid in small ones. The latter has an eye spliced in the upper end to the circumference of its mast-head, and served with spunyarn over the splice. The cable-laid is fitted with a collar, and moused, as any other stay."


S.198 "DEAD-EYES are then turned into the lower end of the shrouds, left-handed, (being cable-laid rope,) with a throat-seizing clapt on close to the dead-eye, and above that a round seizing crossed, and the end of the shroud whipt with spun-yarn, and capped with canvas well tarred."


S.231 "FENDERS are made of worn cable-laid rope, doubled three or four times, and sewed together with spunyarn thus: the rope is first doubled, and a laniard thrust through the bight, and a wall-knot crowned on the end:
the ends are then brought up in the bight, and the four parts sewed together."

[Dubz]

I am a little confused by the two quotes marked in orange. It sounds as if the shrouds of merchant ships were made with shroud-laid, right-handed, while warships were always fitted with the (more expensive) cable-laid, left-handed rope. This would make my statement in my first post obsolete. What do you think?

[Dubz]

The young sea officer's sheet anchor - Darcy Lever - 1808

S.1 "A proportion of yarns (covered with tar) are first twisted together. This is called a Strand; three or more of which being twisted together, form the rope: and according to the number of these strands, it is said to be either Hawser-laid, Shroud-laid, or Cable-laid."

S.2 "A HAWSER-LAID ROPE, Fig. 1, Is composed of three single strands, each containing an equal quantity of yarns, and is laid right-handed, or what is termed with the sun.
A SHROUD-LAID ROPE, Fig. 2, Consists of four strands of an equal number of yarns, and is also laid with the sun.
A CABLE-LAID ROPE, Fig. 3, Is divided into nine strands of an equal number of yarns : these nine strands being again laid into three, by twisting three of the small strands into one. It is laid left-handed, or against the sun.

S.22 "SHROUDS sometimes are cable-laid ; but they are now generally shroud or hawser-laid. (See page 2). They are taken round two fids, or short posts (a, c, Fig. 164)."

"Near the end of each pair of shrouds, a dead-eye is turned in, with a throat-seizing, (see page 9): left-handed, if cable-laid,, right-handed, if hawser-laid. In the latter case, the ends of the shrouds will lie forwards, on the larboard side, and aft, on the starboard side. Fig. 167 represents a dead-eye on the starboard side, and the inner side of the deadeye. The end part of the shroud (i) is stopped to the standing part (k), by two round seizings (see page 9): the end is whipped, and a piece of canvas, tarred, is put over it, called a cap (1)."


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Kedge Anchor - William Brady - 1847

84.—NAMES OF ROPES.
The different kinds of ropes are designated as follows :— Hawser-laid and cable-laid rope is all the same ; it is composed of nine strands, each strand having an equal number of yarns. These nine strands are laid into three, by twisting three small ones into one large one ; then the three large ones are laid up, 6r twisted together left-handed, which makes the nine strands ; this is a hawser-laid, or cabled, rope. A common or plain rope is composed of three strands, of an equal number of yarns twisted together. Shroud-laid rope is made in the same manner, only that it consists of four strands instead of three, and a small strand which runs through the middle, termed the heart of the rope. When plain-laid rope is laid up left-handed, it is called back-laid rope. There is also four stranded hawser-laid rope, which is used for stays, &c. &c.

[tkay11]

I have seen reference elsewhere to shrouds being cable laid or shroud laid. I can't remember where.

Tony

[Dubz]

Text-Book of Seamanship, The equipping and handling of Vessels under Sail and Steam, Commodore S.B. Luce, US Navy, 1891, S.22

https://www.hnsa.org/manuals-documents/a...ship/rope/

"Varieties of Rope. In rope-making the general rule is to spin the yarn from right over to left. All rope yarns are therefore right-handed. The strand, or ready, formed by a combination of such yarns, becomes left-handed. Three of these strands being twisted together form a right-handed rope, known as plain-laid rope. Fig. 14, Plate 7."


"White Rope. Hemp rope, when plain-laid and not tarred in laying-up, is called white rope, and is the strongest hemp cordage. It should not be confounded with Manilla. It is used for log-lines and signal halliards. The latter are also made of yarns of untarred hemp, plaited by machinery to avoid the kinking common to new rope of the ordinary make. This is called “plaited stuff,” or “signal halliard stuff.”

The tarred plain-laid ranks next in point of strength, and is in more general use than any other. The lighter kinds of standing rigging, much of the running rigging, and many purchase falls are made of this kind of rope.

Cable-laid or Hawser-laid Rope, Fig. 15, is left-handed rope of nine strands, and is so made to render it impervious to water, but the additional twist necessary to lay it up seems to detract from the strength of the fibre, the strength of plain-laid being to that of cable-laid as 8.7 to 6; besides this, it stretches considerably under strain.

Back-handed Rope. In making the plain laid, it was said that the readies were left-handed, the yarns and the rope itself being right-handed. If, instead of this, the ready is given the same twist the yarn has (right-handed), then, when brought together and laid up, the rope must come left-handed. This is called left-handed or back-handed rope. It is more pliable than the plain-laid, less liable to kinks and grinds when new, and is allowed, in the navy, for reeving off lower and topsail braces.Shroud-laid. Rope, Fig. 16, Plate 7, is formed by adding another strand to the plain-laid rope. But the four spirals of strands leave a hollow in the centre, which, if unfilled, would, on the application of strain, permit the strands to sink in, and detract greatly from the rope’s strength, by an unequal distribution of strain. The four strands are, therefore, laid up around a heart, a small rope, made soft and elastic, and about one-third the size of the strands.

Experiments show that four-stranded rope, when under 5 inches, is weaker than three-stranded of the same size; but from 5 to 8 inches, the difference in strength of the two kinds is trifling, while all above 8 inches is considered to be equal to plain-laid when the rope is well made.

Four-stranded rope is now but little used except for lifts, preventer-parrels, Jacob’s ladders and rigging laniards."

[Dubz]

The following presentation is also quite interesting, although in my opinion the sources are much too broadly in time and therefore it does not quite "fit" for me (e.g. left laid hawser laid rope). 1800 vs. 1850, Steel vs. Brady are already more difficult to reconcile:

Obsessing About Rope - Scott Bradner - USSCMSG - 1 October 2019

Source: https://www.sobco.com/presentations/2019...essing.pdf

https://www.sobco.com/ship_model/article..._rope.html

cheers

Dirk